Why Play Is Essential for Learning

We’re packing more and more into kids’ days. They face pressure to achieve at younger ages, screens fill more of their free time and even downtime can feel like something that needs to be productive. But what may be getting lost is something deceptively simple: play.

“Play is really children’s opportunity to explore and test out their ideas about the world,” says Kelley White, professor of education in the School of Education at the College of Charleston. 

On this episode of Speaking Of… College of Charleston, White talks about why play is an essential part of learning, from helping children solve problems and navigate relationships to giving them a way to process difficult experiences. She also explains what play-based learning looks like in the classroom, why it shouldn’t disappear as children get older and what adults might gain from making more room for play in their own lives.

Resources

• Kelley White’s article in The Conversation: https://theconversation.com/play-is-essential-for-young-children-including-when-it-comes-to-their-learning-285572
• Kelley White’s College of Charleston faculty page: https://charleston.edu/school-education/faculty/white-kelley.php
• Nathan E. Miles Early Childhood Development Center: Early Childhood Development Center 
• College of Charleston School of Education: https://charleston.edu/school-education/index.php

Transcript

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Kelley Mayer White Speaking Of Podcast

Amy Stockwell: [00:00:00] Welcome to another episode of Speaking of College of Charleston. Today, we're here with Kelly White, professor of education at the college, who has spent many years studying how play shapes development in early education. In a recent article for the conversation, she looks at what kids are learning when they play, from problem-solving and creativity to emotional regulation and social awareness.

On this episode, Kelly explains what play-based learning looks like and why understanding the value of play matters for educators, parents, and anyone interested in how kids learn. Kelly, thank you for coming into the studio. 

Kelley White: Thank you for having me. 

Amy Stockwell: So your article in the conversation challenges the idea that play is separate from learning.

Why, why is play so important in kids' development? 

Kelley White: So when we think about play, play is really children's opportunity to explore [00:01:00] and test out their ideas about the world, and that's true whether we're talking about what they understand about relationships and social interactions, but also what they understand about the world in terms of, um, concepts.

So if you think about socially, um, when children are playing, they can take on different roles. They can play with language, and that's how they explore what it is to be a mom when someone forgets to buy diapers or taking a baby to the, um, pediatrician. Like, what happens in those scenarios? Also, like, if you think about an example where children are playing with blocks, what happens when I take this huge heavy block and try to place it on top of a more narrow one?

I realize that that's not gonna work, and I need to rethink my plans. Um, so of course, or even thinking about something like a sand and water table, like things that sink and float. I can learn much more about those concepts if I can interact with the materials as a child. I can tell children about those things.

Um, we can, you know, teach them more didactically about those concepts, but they're much more likely to remember it- Mm-hmm ... if they can [00:02:00] experience and explore and, um, play with those materials themselves. 

Amy Stockwell: Which really, I'm just thinking about experiential learning. That's what we want students, college students to be doing- 

Kelley White: Yes

Amy Stockwell: is sort of a play, a version of play. Yes, yes. Experiential learning with internships and labs and- Yep ... all of that. Yep. So, yeah. 

Kelley White: Exactly. 

Amy Stockwell: Um, so when you're, when you're talking about play, just to get our listeners, what exactly does that look like? I mean, you, you talked a little bit about, like, dressing up in costumes or- 

Kelley White: Mm-hmm

Amy Stockwell: playing with blocks. What other kind of play- 

Kelley White: Mm-hmm ... 

Amy Stockwell: do... Yeah. 

Kelley White: So there are different types of play. So we can think about free play or more unstructured play. That's similar to the examples I just shared, like playing with blocks, playing with, in, in the house. Um, there's also something we often refer to in the research as guided play, and typically in guided play, there's a little bit more structure.

There might even be an adult present who's narrating what's happening or asking questions that expand the play in some way, [00:03:00] and that's what you, what I would like to see more of in the primary grades. So hopefully children in preschool and kindergarten are still getting lots of opportunities for unstructured or free play, where they have the autonomy to kind of take the play in lots of different directions, use the materials in lo- lots of different ways.

I think a lot of times even for first, second, and third graders, some of that free unstructured play is still happening on the playground- Right ... but maybe less so inside the classroom. Um, whereas I think with guided play, it can really happen at any age. And so you might think about a guided play type of, um, activity in second or third grade where children are learning about money and how to make change and count coins.

If a teacher sets up something like a school store and gives them opportunities to practice, um, being the cashier and being a customer, um, the teacher can be right there asking good questions to get them thinking about like, "Well, how much more money would you need to buy X, Y, and Z?" Mm. And they're much more likely to understand those concepts and, quite frankly, stay engaged if it's done [00:04:00] playfully versus answering those same questions on a worksheet.

Amy Stockwell: Right. That makes me think also of the Children's Museum downtown. Yes. The chil- I remember when my kids were little, there was a little grocery store there. Yes. I don't know if it's still there, but w- and they would push the carts around and- 

Kelley White: Yes, that- 

Amy Stockwell: They loved that 

Kelley White: Yep. The, um, the grocery store is still there, I believe.

I haven't been there in a year or so, but I actually take students to the- Do you? ... Children's Museum so they can see, um, the kinds of play that happen there. Um, and yeah- Yeah, that's a fantastic- ... the grocery store is a great example- Right ... of, of that. Yeah. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah, yeah. Um, okay, and so to get a little bit more into your, your research, you talk about, um, you share a story watching children play to work through the events of 9/11.

Kelley White: Yep. 

Amy Stockwell: Um, so what did that teach you about how children make sense of the world? 

Kelley White: So, um, that happened, I think it was only my second year of teaching. Um, and I was teaching kindergarten at the time right outside of, um, DC, and it was a scary [00:05:00] time for a lot of us adults, but also- The 25th 

Amy Stockwell: anniversary is coming 

Kelley White: up I know.

It's wild to think about that ... crazy, yeah. Um, but of course, scary for the children, and I think, um, as a new young teacher, um, and I think even a lot of parents kind of struggled to explain- Right ... hard things and what was going on 'cause a lot of us really didn't know what was going on. But I had a student whose, um, father was a part of the military response in the days and weeks after and was doing a lot of the patrolling of the skies, and she would regularly reenact the event, um, in the sand table.

And f- and at first, it kind of disturbed me. I got worried that it was scary for her, that it was scary for the other kids. Right.

Talked to some, um, of the teachers I was collaborating with, of course, 'cause I was pretty young and needed mentoring at that point, and decided to just kinda let it play out. I tried to approach it [00:06:00] with a bit more curiosity, and what I realized is it was helping her process what was a very scary thing.

And it helped me realize that I think children use play sometimes to take control of situations that they are un- They are out of control. Yeah. So you see this a lot with children who've experienced trauma too, and there's play therapy. Mm-hmm. Um, but it was just really her oppor- her way to take, take control of the narrative in that situation.

Um- And so I realized that while it might have felt scary to watch her and I was unsure, I do think it was helping her process all the fear she had. 

Amy Stockwell: That's fascinating. 

Kelley White: Yeah, and it, it was just, it made me think a little bit differently about the value of play beyond even, like, the power for it to teach academic skills or for them to teach social skills, but that it was, in many ways, a therapeutic- 

Amy Stockwell: [00:07:00] Mm-hmm

Kelley White: way for them to also express all that they're thinking about, 

Amy Stockwell: good 

Kelley White: and 

Amy Stockwell: bad. And with guided play, then you could almost help the child have a different outcome- 

Kelley White: Yes ... in play. Yeah, and that's what she would do. Yeah. She would kind of turn it into a more positive- A happier ending ... ending. Yeah. Yes, like where her father comes to save the day- Yeah

type of, type of deal. Yeah. Um, so I think, yeah, that really kind of changed things for me in, in seeing, in seeing not just the ac- like I said, the academic value of it, but the emotional value- Right ... um, for young children in particular. 

Amy Stockwell: So does this, I mean, it's, it's easier to, to justify play in the earlier grades, but as kids get older, there's less and less pl- and then by the time, in middle school, I don't even think they, most of them have r- actual recess anymore.

Kelley White: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

Amy Stockwell: Um, so I would think research like yours helps to, not justify is the wrong word, but make a best case for why this type of [00:08:00] activity during the class day is important. 

Kelley White: Yeah, I mean, that's what we're trying to do. 

Amy Stockwell: Not just for emotional development, but also for academic development. 

Kelley White: Yeah, and you see it, like, slip in with older kids in different ways, like things like project-based learning- Mm-hmm

where there is more opportunity for, like, exploration and problem-solving and working together. And so it might not look like traditional play when we think about play for younger children, but they're playing with ideas, and they're playing with- Mm ... concepts. And so I think you, sometimes you do see it happen in middle school and in high school, but it's not, um, it just doesn't look the same.

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. 

Kelley White: Um- But it's just as important, yeah. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. And I mean, then that's, there's so much pressure to- 

Kelley White: Yeah ... 

Amy Stockwell: f- I think increasingly, I remember reading something about, like, kindergarten is the new first grade, you know? S- and kids are so much s- more driven and serious now- 

Kelley White: Yes ... 

Amy Stockwell: in school- 

Kelley White: Yeah ... 

Amy Stockwell: than back in my day.

And yeah, so, um, I- 

Kelley White: I wonder though, like if the pendulum is trying to swing back a little bit- Yeah, I hope so ... though, 'cause I [00:09:00] do hear anecdotally more families looking at things like outdoor schools and- 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah ... 

Kelley White: one of our other colleagues focuses a lot on forest kindergartens, and- 

Amy Stockwell: Huh. Oh, interesting ... 

Kelley White: like, there's some, like, renewed interest in that.

I also notice even just this summer with all the attention and worry about screens- Right ... and mental health, there are some districts who are moving to ban screens, especially in, like, kindergarten, first, second grade. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. 

Kelley White: Um, I think Greenville Schools is looking at doing it. I think I heard Califor- some schools in California are doing it.

So I'm kind of hoping that as we realize that technology, um, we need to be more mindful about technology, that will then make more time for play. 

Amy Stockwell: Right. 

Kelley White: Um, that we'll see a sh- a shift there back to more play-based learning- Yeah ... especially for younger children- Yeah, but- ... but hopefully even for older children.

Amy Stockwell: I wonder, too, I mean, c- because you're talking about play that is, is not online play, right? Right. Yeah. Like, you're not talking about playing on [00:10:00] digital animation kind of play. 

Kelley White: No, that's not 

Amy Stockwell: really- There's a 

Kelley White: distinction there ... yeah, that's not really my area of expertise. Yeah. And I'm not, you know, totally anti-technology.

There are some really powerful things that can happen play-wise- Right ... in a, in a digital space. But, um, but it shouldn't be the end-all and be-all of it. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. Yeah. And your, um, your research you conducted here on campus at the College of Charleston in the Early Childhood Development Center- 

Kelley White: Yes ... 

Amy Stockwell: which is just across the street, which is fantastic and- 

Kelley White: Yep

Amy Stockwell: so t- can you talk about that process a little bit? Like, you work with your students that you teach- 

Kelley White: Yep ... 

Amy Stockwell: and- 

Kelley White: So we have a lab school on campus that serves children ages two through five. It's a pretty magical place. Um, my own children went there. And it's been around, we've had it, it's been here for a while.

Yeah, it's been here for, I think, 50 years. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. 

Kelley White: Um- Maybe I'm wr- uh, no, I think it has been here for 50 years. Yeah. Um, it's been around for a long time, and it has always been a play-based program. Um, so yes, we take students there so they can see firsthand the power of what goes on there. Um, they are [00:11:00] informed by the Reggio Emilia model, which comes out of Italy.

Uh-huh. And they really follow the lead of the child, so they base projects and, um, base the learning on the interests of the children. So it's not like a more traditional preschool where, you know, in September we're gonna talk about- 

Amy Stockwell: Right ... 

Kelley White: this. In October, we're gonna switch gears and talk about pumpkins.

Instead, they're really trying to listen to what the kids are interested in and following their lead. 

Amy Stockwell: Oh, interesting. 

Kelley White: Um- 

Amy Stockwell: Which would change every single- Yeah ... with every child, with every single year. 

Kelley White: Yes. 

Amy Stockwell: Right? 

Kelley White: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, which is pretty, pretty fascinating. Um, but our research, um, really kinda came from a desire to advocate for more play-based kindergartens in particular.

So ECDC has two, three, two and three-year-old classrooms, and then they have a combined classroom of four and five, so pre-K- Mm ... and kindergarten all in one room. And some parents keep their child there for kindergarten, and some leave and go to kindergarten in [00:12:00] their, um, communities. 

Amy Stockwell: Neighborhood, yeah. 

Kelley White: Yeah.

And we were trying to get more people to understand the value of play-based kindergarten and how it could still- have children feel just as prepared for first grade or whenever they transitioned into. Right. So we interviewed, um, parents, surveyed parents, we interviewed parents, and that was the same year that we had, I think there were five incoming freshmen at the College of Charleston who had all gone to ECDC as little kids.

That's 

Amy Stockwell: fantastic. 

Kelley White: And that had been kind of a big story at the college. We interviewed them and their parents too, and just asked about, like, what were some of the outcomes- Yeah, what a great 

Amy Stockwell: longitudinal 

Kelley White: right there. Yeah, yeah. That was- Right there ... right. From a research standpoint- Yeah ... it was like, nice.

There's my- Right ... sample right there. Right. Um, and so that was, that was pretty valuable to hear all the different stories about how the parents, in particular, thought that that time at ECDC, you know, impacted their children- 

Amy Stockwell: Right ... 

Kelley White: later. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. 

Kelley White: Year, and even years later. '

Amy Stockwell: Cause it's, uh, difficult to m- to quantify, I would think.

Kelley White: Yes. [00:13:00] Yeah, right, especially when you think about the social, emotional, and the executive functioning skills. Those are harder to measure than- 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah ... 

Kelley White: um, you know, how many letters you know and how many numbers you know. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. And you said that program, that model comes out of Italy. Is that, isn't that Montessori also?

Maria Montessori was also from Italy, right? 

Kelley White: Yep. Yeah. So there, there's two different types of programs. What are they doing in Italy 

Amy Stockwell: that we're 

Kelley White: not? Yeah, right. Um, Montessori actually is a little bit different. It provides more structure, but, um, but yeah, they're both models that we teach about at the college and- 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah

Kelley White: um, draw from- 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah ... 

Kelley White: in our, in our training of teachers. We think there's value to both of them. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. Yeah, that's 

Kelley White: fantastic. There's a lot of great Montessori schools, public schools in the area. 

Amy Stockwell: Right. 

Kelley White: Um, and so we try to take our students out to see Montessori too so they can get a sense for what... 'Cause Montessori's hard to understand unless you actually see it.

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. 

Kelley White: Um, so we take them out to Montessori schools and let them experience what it's like. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. 

Kelley White: Um, it's been a, it's been pretty phenomenal. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. Yeah. So that's current [00:14:00] students who are, who are studying to become early teacher- Yep ... early education teachers. 

Kelley White: Yep. 

Amy Stockwell: And, um, we have a fantastic school of education here that we place a lot of our students in local s- schools across the state.

Kelley White: Yep. 

Amy Stockwell: Um, so. 

Kelley White: Yep, they spend time at ECDC. They spend some time in Montessori schools. They spend time in public schools around town. We have great partnerships with CCSD and Berkeley and Dorchester, so- Yeah ... they get a lot of field experience before they are out on their own. Yeah. And we have a lot of amazing teachers that they learn from- 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah

Kelley White: um, around town. Yeah. So it's always really fun to hear what they're picking up and bringing back to the classroom. 

Amy Stockwell: And the research that you're doing, that you can be sharing it with your students in the, you know, every day in the classroom. Yep. And- 

Kelley White: Yep, and we even have Memminger right next to campus- That's right.

Yeah ... which is just a great resource for us as well. Yeah. And, um, we've had different partnerships with them over the years, so. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. 

Kelley White: Lots going on- Yeah ... in the local area for our students to learn from. 

Amy Stockwell: And, um, as we're, I think as [00:15:00] we're wrapping up here, um, I keep thinking about in my own life about a lack of play as for adults.

So c- could you apply, you know, this just speculation, but could you apply your research to all ages, to middle school, high school, adults, college kids? 

Kelley White: I think so. You don't see the word play used as much- Yeah ... I think for adults, but we often talk- Which is a shame, don't you think? It is. We talk about the concept of flow though.

Right. And flow really is like what you experience in free play, right? Like this like loss of a sense of time, like where- Yeah ... you're so absorbed in the activity, and you're so engaged and so excited about what you're doing that you lose all sense of time. Right. And I think that can definitely happen for adults.

Um, but I worry that sometimes we're all so focused on like our to-do list- Right ... and our screens that we don't make enough space for ourselves to engage in that- 

Amy Stockwell: Right ... 

Kelley White: um, as we should. 

Amy Stockwell: Right. 

Kelley White: Yeah. 

Amy Stockwell: And we, I mean, I, I, yeah, we, we are [00:16:00] online all the time, and so we don't... We lose that, that boredom period, you know, the time that we are no longer even bored anymore.

Kelley White: Yes. 

Amy Stockwell: So but a lot of people say boredom is, being bored is where a lot of great- 

Kelley White: Yes ... 

Amy Stockwell: creative ideas come from. 

Kelley White: Yes. I tell my teenagers that- Yeah ... a lot this summer. Yeah. I told them that a lot this summer, and they- It's 

Amy Stockwell: good to be bored ... 

Kelley White: got tired of hearing me say it. Right. But they, it did lead to some pretty creative things that they ended up getting into this summer.

Yeah. So. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. 

Kelley White: Yeah. In my FYE course, we were just reading about loneliness and, um They had, uh, talked about in this article that 18 to 25-year-olds tend to be some of the loneliest- Right ... groups. But also in the article, they made the point that young children are less likely to experience loneliness because of the amount of time they play and spend absorbed with one another and in the things that they're doing.

Yeah. 

Amy Stockwell: That's huge. 

Kelley White: And so I told them- Right ... when I was talking about it, I was like, "You know, the College of Charleston has all these events in this Weeks of Welcome. Like, some of these things are actually pretty playful and fun." Right. "You have to put yourself out there-" Yeah ... "and go do [00:17:00] these things. It might be hard to, like, walk through that door and go to the event, but once you're there-" 

Amy Stockwell: Right

Kelley White: "you'll f- you'll feel that sense of flow or that sense of play, too, and it's just as important for you-" It's just that taking that first step ... as it is for the five-year-olds." 

Amy Stockwell: Exactly. 

Kelley White: Yeah. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. Yeah. That's so important, 'cause we are in the epidemic of loneliness, and- 

Kelley White: Yeah ... 

Amy Stockwell: I think that that could be a really important message to share with people.

Like, just to look at that, those facts, that these younger children aren't experiencing it, and- 

Kelley White: Yeah ... 

Amy Stockwell: um, it's because they're actually in community with other children, and- 

Kelley White: Yeah. 

Amy Stockwell: I know. I know. 

Kelley White: And doing things that they love. Yeah. Right? We give them lots of time and space to do it. Right. Or we, we should.

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. But- We're not saying, "What did you do today? What did you..." Yeah. 

Kelley White: Yes. "What did you accomplish today?" "

Amy Stockwell: How productive 

Kelley White: were you?" Right. Right. 

Amy Stockwell: Right. Yeah. 

Kelley White: Yeah. I mean, I've noticed that already with my high schooler. She's in ninth grade, and she's got a pretty hefty to-do list already. Yeah. And I thought, "I don't remember having that hefty of a to-do list when I was-" Yeah

"14." 

Amy Stockwell: No, it's 

Kelley White: shocking. Yeah. And a 

Amy Stockwell: lot of, a lot of college students are working [00:18:00] One job- Yes ... if not more. Yes. And, and they're doing after school activities. Yes. And they're really focused on their academics and on sports and yeah. 

Kelley White: Yes. I was just reading, last night I had my students, I had each of them on the first day write me a letter just to tell them about themselves.

Amy Stockwell: Oh, that's great. 

Kelley White: Tell me about themselves, and I mean, I was shocked. One of them was like, "I'm working three jobs. I have 21 credit hours. I'm involved in four different after school activities." Yeah. And I was just like, "Wow." I know. Like, yes, no wonder you feel overwhelmed. 

Amy Stockwell: I know. 

Kelley White: That's a lot. I 

Amy Stockwell: feel like we have to assign play, you know?

Kelley White: Yes. 

Amy Stockwell: Like 

Kelley White: Yeah, which is why I try to do some of that- Play mandatory ... in the class. Yeah. Because right, you, if I don't take them to the children's museum like- Right ... they won't do it. Right. If I don't bring Legos into the classroom- Yeah ... they won't play with them. So yeah, I try to build in time for them to do that in class.

Yeah. Especially in the FYE class, where I have a little bit more autonomy and time to make- 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah ... 

Kelley White: make that, um, a priority. I definitely do it with, with the FYE kids. 

Amy Stockwell: And that's first year experience, 

Kelley White: yeah. Yes, yes. Sorry. 

Amy Stockwell: We have a large variety of really cool classes in the [00:19:00] FYE classes and- 

Kelley White: Yes. That's one of, been a- I 

Amy Stockwell: think all, we, I think all students do an FYE class now.

Kelley White: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I think they've always done it either in fall or spring, but this year they made, they made a big push to have everyone doing their FYE course in the fall. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. 

Kelley White: So that they could really get oriented at the college, 'cause they have that seminar too that they also do with the peer facilitators- That's right

that really kind of orients them to different institutional resources. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. Get them connected. 

Kelley White: Which is great. Right from the start. I've loved teaching in that program. Yeah, yeah. So it's been- That'd be great ... been really fun. Yeah. And it's a nice opportunity for the faculty because you can kind of develop a course around a special topic.

Right. And that, I did one on play a few years ago, and that was a really nice opportunity for me to get back into the research and think about. 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah. 

Kelley White: I took students around to different playgrounds around town- You did? ... that were within walking- Like literal playgrounds. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. We walked to different playgrounds- Yeah

around town and kind of got a sense for what kids could do there and what were- Right ... all the possibilities. Um, so yeah, it's been amazing. 

Amy Stockwell: That would, that would be a great class. 

Kelley White: It was fun. It was really fun. I 

Amy Stockwell: know, that's something that just made me think too, about [00:20:00] h- having young children, you know, that it reminds you of- Yes

of, and taking them to the playground and just s- you know, spending an hour there pl- swinging on the swings. Yes. You just forget that as adults, how important that those, those activities are. Yeah. 

Kelley White: Yeah. I came across a video the other day of my two kids just- They were, you know, acting out this whole scenario in our dirty clothes bins of all things.

Right. Like, they had made them talk. Like, with the lids. I mean, it was crazy. That's probably a crazy story for me to tell today. 

Amy Stockwell: Right. 

Kelley White: Yeah. But it just reminds you that they can turn- Playing dress up. Right ... yeah, they can turn anything into- 

Amy Stockwell: Yeah ... 

Kelley White: play, any materials you come- Yeah, you don't 

Amy Stockwell: need big, expensive, fancy toys.

No. 

Kelley White: You, 

Amy Stockwell: yeah. 

Kelley White: No. You put a kid in a field, and they- Right ... figure out things to do. 

Amy Stockwell: Right. 

Kelley White: Um, it's pretty- A big empty box ... it's pretty wild. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Boxes were always popular- Right ... in my house. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. 

Amy Stockwell: I know. That's gonna be our new, we're gonna schedule play. 

Kelley White: Yes. There you go. 

Amy Stockwell: Push, yeah, encourage, encourage people to play.

Kelley White: Absolutely. It's 

Amy Stockwell: very important for all [00:21:00] of us. Yeah. 

Kelley White: Definitely. 

Amy Stockwell: Thank you so much for coming in. Your students are lucky to have you. Oh, thank you. And we love the research that you're doing and reminding us of this very important part of childhood learning growing up. Um, and thank you to our listeners for coming to this episode of Speaking of College of Charleston, where we explore ideas and issues through the expertise of our brilliant faculty.

This episode was recorded in Bell Studios on campus. I'm Amy Stockwell from University Communications. Thank you for listening, and we'll see you next time.